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Accessibility and Apathy

  • Ald
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4 years 4 months ago #1 by Ald
Ald created the topic: Accessibility and Apathy
I thought this was a pretty good video discussing the sad state of affairs in WoW specifically, but it reaches out to every MMO.

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4 years 4 months ago #2 by Rath
Rath replied the topic: Accessibility and Apathy
Yeah, I hope this doesn't happen to XIV... I hope they don't duty finder everything, that is extremely sad..

My XIVPad: [url=http://xivpads.com?7050121]Rath Skybreaker[/url]

Bayohne wrote: Sorry, but you can ask this question via Twitter please? Thanks!

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4 years 4 months ago #3 by Ald
Ald replied the topic: Accessibility and Apathy
I can't express how much i hate the "unsub until next patch" style of play.

Do you even want those players in your game though? Money is money i suppose.
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4 years 4 months ago #4 by Grey
Grey replied the topic: Accessibility and Apathy
He could simply make the point that WoW needs more gated content and done so in the first five minutes.

Honestly this video communicated one thing to me -- that Blizzard has created the most successful MMO ever and it is stupidly easy to hit max level. Sounds like win-win to me and I agree that is a huge problem today in the entire gaming world. There is no motivation to actually be good at a game. You don't need to punish players along the way (negative reinforcement), instead you can positively reinforce them for doing good things.

Unfortunately I already knew that part in bold.
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4 years 4 months ago - 4 years 4 months ago #5 by Nicblue
Nicblue replied the topic: Accessibility and Apathy
I remember playing WoW with a buddy from XI because of the mass hackings that happened in like 06 or 07. We played during burning crusade, before LFR, before heroic raids etc. The game was tough, seriously was. People had to pay attention in 5 man heroics, we had to use CC, mark mobs to kill first (Skull X Star Circle Moon, I could mark mobs in my sleep, haha). I was in a 10 man guild and at that time there was only one easy accessible 10 man raid. You could pug some of the 25 man raids but the serious ones...a lot of people didn't even attempt or saw past the first boss.

The game has changed overtime, no doubt. Can you really blame the more causal people because they want to see the content? I have a friend who raids hardcore in WoW, his guild is #49 in the U.S. however, he raids 4 days a week for about 5 hours per day.. I hear they are picking up another day for 5.4 (end of MoP). I personally could never do this even back in my prime of being I want to the best at the game (FFXI).

LFR and what they have done with this game is definitely a double-edged sword. People can see all the content, the last boss of every raid. Having said that, it makes end to the end bosses feel less epic. I never saw Illidan fall or Kil'jaeden perish but I wanted to. I would read forums all day about my class, how I can tank better. Watch videos on bosses that we're doing and figure out how do it better. Hoping that one day I will be able to do black temple or the sunwell. I never got the chance to and I don't regret Blizzard for making this content hard.

I guess MMO players these days want everything handed to them rather than working for it. The feeling of actually getting stronger and gearing up and then downing a epic boss (before LFR) was well...very satisfying.

I just want to edit this in: Even though my friend raids like 20 hours a week, you only need to do this for heroic raids. Lilitu and I were in a guild that raided 3 days a week for 3 hours and we were able to down raids (normal mode) and actually see the content. I believe 3 days, 9 hours a week is the bare minimum you'll find for a casual WoW guild.
Last Edit: 4 years 4 months ago by Nicblue.
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4 years 4 months ago #6 by Bjornsin
Bjornsin replied the topic: Accessibility and Apathy
That's too easy, you should be forced to raid 20+ hours a week if you want to be among the elite. BC was also where I spent most of my WoW career, and I had to put in hours like these to see Illidan fall, though never got to see Kil'jaeden die. I prefer it this way, because to keep an MMO going you need a hard core goal to achieve or the game loses its meaning and the player feels satisfied to quickly. I've tried to go back to WoW a number of times but every time I log on there's been so much change for the worst that I'm off again in 5 minutes. It's silly and sad to think that pugs can clear all the content in the game even if its normal, and that CC seems to be something of the past. I don't want a game where I'm guaranteed to see every piece of content, I want a game where I have to work for that goal. Remember when the Amani War Bear was introduced and it was a fucking riot in terms of difficulty to get? I achieved one and it was a nice trophy to show off and that's the sort of nostalgia that I want back when raiding. WoTLK could've been epic, it was so close, but its also when content started to become easier, and it's only been simplified since.
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4 years 4 months ago #7 by AIMonster
AIMonster replied the topic: Accessibility and Apathy
The casualification of MMOs is getting out of hand. I'm all for casuals being able to experience content, but there needs to be carrots for hardcore to chase after too. Hardcore will stick along for longer periods of time if they constantly have something to strive for and be more active than casuals making the game seem more active. There is a good reason casual games don't stick (with the exception of GW2 which also has problems with player retention due to lack of endgame) and don't hold players for too long. WoW used to be a very good MMO around the TBC era before the casualification and not till WotLK's release did it become a real issue, but it was definitely present before there with the dumbing down of the harder heroics and removal of those heroics for attunements to the hardest raid dungeons.

At WotLK's release nearly every single guild cleared out all the bosses in Naxx, the drakes, and that other flying boss on the first month of the game release. The only thing to strive for was certain achievements (aside from 3 drakes even these were piss easy for the most part). Naxx itself was significantly dumbed down from the 40 man version, especially bosses like 4 horsemen, Sapphiron, and Kel'thuzad. Nearly everything that was difficult about it was removed, and gear was simply too easy to get quickly to really gate you from doing any sort of content. I heard they added much better and more challenging raids, but they always had a problem with making the raids easier once a certain number of guilds cleared it (which oddly enough was the reason Fires of Heaven left EQ for WoW back when Rathe Council was nerfed) from Ragnaros on.

I'm a firm believer in making content for both casual, semi-hardcore, hardcore, skilled, unskilled, etc. Don't dilute one aspect of the game to appease one crowd. It's the one thing I think Wildstar has going for it, it seems like it has lots of content for all types of players and the content is separated for those different types of players. Solve the problem of having to form very specific group sizes and make raids more flexible with that (but award better gear for doing more difficult raids with a lot of people). Why does it have to be 10 man, why not 8 man or 12 man or 27 man content? I think the technology is there where you could make content for a general amount of players and just scale things accordingly, it will take lots of number crunching but I think it's feasible nonetheless. The move towards action MMOs can really make player skill shine so why has no game tried to make decent raid encounters yet in an action MMO setting?
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4 years 4 months ago #8 by Black Death
Black Death replied the topic: Accessibility and Apathy
Meylei hit it right on the head. I too left FFXI before the first xpac. 40 man dungeons were challenging (not only for content but to get 40 people to show up, with the right class mix, and actually be prepared). FFXI was super hard and WoW was a better fit for me as I liked the instanced combat, where only Dynamis was the equivelent. Camping against RMT for every boss made me lose interest in FFXI.

Now, games are almost exclusively for the casual gamer. I can understand having some things on difficulties for the accesibility by all people, but there needs to be some exclusive hard core content, as well as some very social content (thinking of items like holiday events). With out the challenging, continious end-game content, the best players will be difficult to retain. But, as previously mentioned, money is money and that is what ultimatly drives the industry.

Unfortunatly, we have also created a culture for the best of the best in end-game pve content which is challenging for developers to stay on top of (or you can just make bosses like absolute virtue). PVP content is easy.
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4 years 4 months ago - 4 years 4 months ago #9 by Nicblue
Nicblue replied the topic: Accessibility and Apathy
I agree with most of you guys opinions. I'm not sure I can do a raid like ToT (Throne of Thunder, MoP's last raid) for 4-5 hours a day. The thing I really enjoyed about XI's end game is there are(were?) so many things to do. When you think back before they changed the level cap you could obtain 'end game' gear from many different areas of the game. Whether that is dynamis, limbus, sky, HNMs, etc. Friday would be dynamis, Saturday in our linkshell was the 'weekend event' where we would vote on the forums for what raid/pop nm/mob we wanted to do. You were never tied to doing one raid to gear up then switching it to heroic and the game adding either a new end boss or just adding more mechanics/shorter berserk timers.

Like maylei said, Why does there have to be a cap on how many people can attend a raid. Even at lv75 cap in XI you would eventually be able to kill end game bosses/raids with less and less people. The more skilled you got at the game/better gear you got, the less people were needed for these fights. The fights may take a bit longer but it was very satisfying to kill shit with small numbers.

Ok, with my strong nostalgia of XI aside, @Maylei: Blizzard is releasing a new raid difficulty called Flex Raid in 5.4. The item levels of gear will be higher than LFR but lower than normal. Flex raid will allow you to bring between 10 to 25 members for a raid. The mobs will scale depending on how many members you bring, 12, 22, 19, etc. Though you can't go lower than 10.

Just to throw this little edit in here: I'm pretty positive I would never want to do end game like XI again though. It was pretty hectic at times...It's the people that keep you playing mmos, the linkshell..the guild; a thing that I only had for a short time in WoW.
Last Edit: 4 years 4 months ago by Nicblue.
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4 years 4 months ago #10 by Grey
Grey replied the topic: Accessibility and Apathy
Unfortunately game systems like XI's where there was "a lot to do" was built around an idea that was both unique to XI and not very popular by the masses (or perhaps it would be had Blizzard popularized it instead of SE, but we'll never know that answer). That idea was gear progression. Gear progression in XI was horizontal because of gear swapping, so you can't really discuss one in terms of XI without the other. SE's intention seemed to be to keep several events relevant at all times, rather than allowing players to focus on the flavor-of-the-month content which would have all the best gear, like in WoW. It created massive organizational difficulties for guilds, but SE didn't consider the meta of their game for years after release. They were not even fully aware of the extent to which players were utilizing gear swapping, and once when they did, they kept their system the same, placing additional emphasis on horizontal progression. CoP was basically an entire expansion of that. ToAU back-filled the concept, adding the situational gear pieces (assault, nyzul, salvage).

When you consider this for a long while and compare it to other games, it's really no secret why people don't return to XI for the gameplay or progression; it's a major pain in the ass. It's about 100x easier to pick-up and put-down games like WoW for the precise reasons (and thensome) that the video highlights. The major factor you bring up Nic, and that he only briefly touches upon in the video, is community. He scorns the community for its apathy towards players and the developer for its catered accessibility. I get that, we all do, and his video illustrates his points fine, but what he fails to convey is that to that hardcore crowd of players, gameplay isn't the only factor that keeps us coming back. Community is a key player in that, and it's one of the reasons I established IGC after leaving XI and Aion.

The idea is simple: why start fresh all over again with new people just because you're playing a new game? I mean, when you move, it's not like you just stop talking to all your old friends or wondering about your old neighborhood. The internet lets us be connected and so every time I see an old guildmate from Karasu apply, I am not surprised. Familiarity is a welcoming and heart-warming thing among players (no homo, some would say) and as human beings we want to be around people we already know. Those connections are stronger than the name of a game. A guild name becomes like a country flag. We rally underneath it and represent it. It becomes a part of us. So here we are, reunited in a different game, playing with like 30% of the same people. Personally I think that's pretty cool.

On a personal note, I want to say that as much as I distanced myself from Karasu/FFXI, I did not intend to give off the impression that I hated everyone when I left. I needed to put (a lot of) space between that and myself. As I said, the community was a huge sticking point, and I hated that game for a very long time before I was banned, so when I saw a chance to get out, I took it and took it to the extreme because that was the only way I knew I'd escape it. What better way to get away from a 'game" by getting away from its "people". What I learned from that is community is more important than anything and so I made this to bring people together, so we'd never feel alone in a new world (because I also knew sometimes we like to try new games, heh).

So that for me is what this video does not get to, and for someone who has been playing WoW from the get-go (video's author), I have to say I am a little peeved he doesn't get into that. I know why though--it would take away from the real point he is trying to make which is that Blizzard is to blame for encouraging bad (read: natural, human) behavior in his favorite online fantasy world. You might as well just blame "people" though, since it's not like aliens made the game.

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